My Favorite True Crime All The Time Podcasts

When I was a kid growing up in the 80s, one of my all time favorite shows was Unsolved Mysteries. Nothing terrified me more than that intro music & Robert Stack’s voice. My dad introduced me to horror movies at a very young age & I had seen every Freddy Kruger, Halloween movie up until that time & never had nightmares, but Unsolved Mysteries never failed to creep me out.

From there, my true crime obsession moved onto Court TV, Dateline, 20/20, Forensic Files, true crime books & documentaries. I loved Ann Rule & “The Stranger Beside Me” was one of my all time favorite true crime books. I found it fascinating this woman worked with Ted Bundy, one of the most notorious serial killers.

Two years ago, I started a new job where I no longer had to deal with clients face to face. Every one around me has headphones & listens to music while they work. So I tried music & loaded up Evil Husband’s super awesome 90s ultimate play list & found myself desperately trying to stop myself from singing along. No one wants to hear me singing Third Eye Blind or Barenaked Ladies. Then I discovered the wonderful world of podcasts.

There are so many podcasts. Every one has one apparently. From Z list celebrities on reality tv to NPR, there is a podcast for everyone & everything. Naturally, I gravitated to true crime podcasts. The majority of the recommendations I came across were the most popular true crime podcasts like, My Favorite Murder & True Crime Garage. And I kept seeing the same ones mentioned over & over again. So I tried listening to some. And they just weren’t my cup o’tea. I have never been able to settle on the reasons why either.

So I started listening to random true crime podcasts. And the trick to podcasts that I learned? Never judge a podcast based on the first episode. Some are a little green in the beginning, but they get much, much better. So I am going to list my favorite true crime podcasts that maybe don’t get mentioned as often as some of the more popular ones. And a few have blown up in popularity since I started listening.

Update: I have removed Crime Junkie from my list of favorites due to the recent allegations of plagiarism. I will not support those who use others hard work & research as their own. I was very disappointed in not only the accusations, but the response from Ashley & Brit as well. While innocent until proven guilty is an important tenet in a court of law, the same does not always apply in the court of public opinion. I have chose not to continue to listen to their podcast any longer, but that does not mean anyone else has to.

My top 5 favorite true crime podcasts are below. These are in no particular order as they are all equally awesome in their own way.

  1. True Crime All The Time (TCATT). TCATT was the second podcast I binged after I was all caught up on Crime Junkie. TCATT is hosted by Mike Ferguson & Mike “Gibby” Gibson. TCATT goes a lot more indepth in their coverage of cases in their hour long podcast. They give a lot of background on the killer’s childhood & life, which I find completes the whole picture. They focus on solved cases & cover some of the “big ones” like Ed Kemper & Jeffrey Dahmer. There is a lot more discussion & off the wall banter then Crime Junkie, but I enjoy the break from the often heinous crimes they are covering. They also have an unsolved version of their podcast, appropriately titled “True Crime All The Time Unsolved.” I rotate back & forth between the two. They also did a fantastic job covering one of the most infamous cases here in Michigan, the Oakland County Child Killer. New episodes of both podcasts are released every Monday.
  2. In The Dark. I loved this podcast & became so engrossed in these cases. In The Dark is an investigative true crime podcast so it is a mix of story & interviews, similar to the Serial podcast. There are currently only 2 seasons and I am impatiently waiting for more. The first season focuses on the Jacob Wetterling case, a boy that went missing in 1989. The most interesting part of this season is while they were researching & investigating prior to the podcast release, Jacob Wetterling’s remains were found. The second season focuses on Curtis Flowers, a man that has been tried 6 times for the same crime. It is by far one of the most infuriating cases I have ever listened to. They are currently adding updated episodes on this case as the Supreme Court in November 2018 agreed to hear arguments on his case.
  3. Small Town Murder. This podcast will not be for everyone. If you have a dark sense of humor, you will like it. If not, don’t bother. Two comedians, James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman host this podcast that focuses on murders in the smallest of the small towns across the U.S. It is dark & it is funny. They make fun of small towns, the people in them & the perpretators. But never the victims. It is comedy & true crime done tastefully. And this was the first true crime podcast that made me laugh out loud. My brother & I enjoy this podcast so much, for Christmas I got a Small Town Murder t-shirt from him & I gave him monthly Patreon donations to the podcast (and TCATT too.) They also have a live tour, Shut Up & Give Me Murder, that my brother went to. Princess Unicorn had a cheer competition that day, so I was unable to go along. But next time they are in Detroit, I am going. They also have another podcast, Crime in Sports, which is about, obviously, crime in sports. I have not listened to this one… yet.
  4. Court Junkie. This podcast focuses on the court proceedings & trial aspect of the cases Jillian covers. Jillian covers lesser known court cases & interviews the people involved. I love her Court Junkie Briefs where she talks with prosecutors or defense attorneys covering various topics like trying cases with no body or how to choose expert witnesses for a defense. If you love Law & Order type stuff, Court Junkie is right up your alley.
  5. Morbid. I totally did not know what I was getting into with this podcast, but I love it. Ash & Alaina cover everything from serial killers, to unsolved mysteries & other creepy tales. Alaina is an autopsy technician, so she brings an interesting insight into the cases they cover. While covering dark material, Ash & Alaina take a lighter approach & add humor into their podcast.

Honorable Mentions. I really enjoyed these podcasts, but I haven’t fully binged all episodes or they are only one season. I have been binging them slowly in between my favorites.

  1. Cold. This is one of the most intense podcasts I have ever listened to. A one season podcast that goes in depth into the case of Susan Powell, who is still missing to this day. I have heard other podcasts cover this case, but never to this extent. There are never before released audio journals from Josh Powell & his father Steve. A warning…you may need palette cleansing or a shower after listening to some of these episodes.
  2. Swindled. Swindled focuses on white collar crime. This is a narrative storytelling format with audio from news broadcasts peppered in. These are stories of bank robberies, corruption & straight up corporate greed. And some of these episodes will make you mad.
  3. Dark Poutine. A very Canadian true crime podcast. A little bit of Canadian humor, discussion & storytelling about true crime in Canada. Be sure you’ve got your “double double” while listening.
  4. Hell and Gone. There is only season of this podcast & covers the murder of Rebekah Gould. Investigative reporter, Catherine Townsend, returns to her hometown in Arkansas to try to find her killer.
  5. Already Gone. So I am very partial to this podcast because Nina Innstead covers crimes that take place in Michigan. Some I am familiar with, others I have never heard of. And because some of these crimes happen a little too close to home, I get creeped out listening.
  6. Real Crime Profile. This podcast is hosted by a former FBI profiler, a former criminal behavior analyst from the Scotland Yard, & the casting director of Criminal Minds. The first season covers “Making a Murderer” documentary. Later episodes cover everything from O.J. Simpson to Charles Manson to Mindhunter and beyond. I could listen to Laura Richards from the Scotland Yard talk all day. But it is a fascinating insight from actual law enforcement officers to hear their professional opinions on infamous cases in history.
  7. Small Town Dicks. If you are okay with listening to Lisa Simpson talk about true crime, this is the podcast for you. Hosted by Yeardley Smith (aka the voice of Lisa Simpson) & Zibby Allen, the pair interview officers Dan & Dave, who happen to be identical twin brothers, about the cases they worked on. Dan investigates violent crimes, while Dave investigates sex crimes & child abuse. The format is interview style, but mostly it is law enforcement telling their perspective of the cases they actively worked. The second episode was intense & by far one of the craziest episodes I’ve listened to out of them all.

Have fun binging fellow crime junkies!! If you truly enjoy these podcasts, please give them some love on social media or consider joining their Patreon so they can continue bringing us great content!

How To Go Camping When You Don’t Like Camping.

One common theme you may pick up on as I write these blog posts, is that I am not the outdoorsy type. Living in Michigan, its either too cold, too wet, too hot, too humid or too many damn mosquitoes for me to want to do anything outside for extended periods of time. Which brings me to an incredibly popular hobby around these parts, camping. I have had zero interest in going camping as I felt I’ve gotten my fair share of it out of the way back when I was in Girl Scouts. Last time I went camping, it was April, which meant cold and rainy and just plain miserable. I never wanted to go camping again.

Evil Husband has been pestering me for years to go camping and this past summer I finally caved and we took our first family camping trip. It all began with a Father’s Day Amazon wish list comprised of mostly camping gear… he is not subtle at all. We had nothing as far as camping stuff goes, so we began with a tent and added gear here and there for birthdays & Christmas. The majority of stuff we found on Amazon & purchased when it went on sale.

The most important item to begin with is a tent. I hate bugs & wetness, so finding a good quality tent is a must. Even though it was just the 3 of us, we purchased a 6 person tent to have room for air mattresses and space to breathe. The tent we ended up with fit twin size & queen size mattress with easily 3-4 feet between. We also brought a plastic tarp as a barrier between the ground & tent to prevent the bottom of the tent from getting damaged by rocks and keep things dry.

Our weekend home

We also brought a mat to keep sandy & muddy shoes on when going in & out of the tent. Which brings me to the most important rule to of camping, especially if you hate bugs, is to keep the tent door closed all the time. You don’t want to wake up to find these guys inside your tent.

Woke up to these guys above my head every morning. Thankfully, they are on the outside of the tent.

The reason for writing about this in February is that campsites are usually booked around this time for the summer. In Michigan, we can pay for a recreation passport which grants access to all state parks & we picked a state park for our first camping trip. The Michigan DNR has a pretty decent website for booking a campsite & even has pictures for each site so you are able to see what the site looks like before you book. I would check out your state’s DNR website to see if they have similar options. Many campgrounds are on Trip Advisor as well, which I highly advise checking out & reading reviews before deciding on a location. We originally wanted to go camping at the Traverse City State Park, but learned after reading reviews on Trip Advisor that the camp sites are very close to the main roads & parking lots, and the airport is very close by as well. We wanted something a little less in a touristy area and quieter. We ended up deciding on Interlochen State Park, mostly thanks to Evil Husband realizing I would like a place that wouldn’t have gross bathrooms & showers. They were very well maintained and had plenty of hot water.

One of the big perks of camping is the cost. We arrived on a Friday and left on Sunday, and it was only $52 for the site. You might be able to find a motel that cheap, but not sure it would be one you’d want to stay at. We brought coolers filled with ice, food & most importantly beer. We planned out our meals a bit before shopping and we honestly ate some great food that weekend. I think I ate the best baked potato I have ever had. We bought a fire grill & a portable propane stove to cook veggies and breakfast. We also brought a party tent to put over the picnic table where we prepped food, cooked & ate.

Nothing beats cooking over an open fire!

Our first day we spent setting up the tent & camp site. We spent our evenings cooking dinner & relaxing by the fire, cooking s’mores. On Saturday, we visited the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore to climb the sand dunes & took scenic tours around the Lake Michigan shoreline. Honestly, if you get the chance to ever visit Michigan or you live here & have never been, please add it to your travel bucket list. It is a beautiful place. Sunday was spent packing up & short visit to Traverse City & the best ice cream place in Michigan, Moomers. Below are some gratuitous pictures of the dunes. Scroll further down for the Camping List.

One of the lookout points on the scenic drive.
This is only the top half of the way down.
The bottom half.
A side trail
View from the top of the climbable dune. You can climb up this and take an hour hike to the shore of Lake Michigan.

So the camping verdict is that I enjoyed camping enough to make it an annual family trip every summer. Below is the camping list I recommend of things to bring along to make it comfortable & enjoyable if you aren’t into the whole camping thing. I linked to the some of the items we actually purchased for our camping gear. We store it all in storage bins that we can just throw in the back of the van & go.

Before I get to the list, I am going to have a soapbox moment. Where ever you decide to go camping, please leave the campsite cleaner then you found it & don’t be those jerks that burn plastic & garbage in the fire pits. Please consider using reusable dishes or paper products in place of plastic & styrofoam. Clean up after yourself & be respectful of the environment.

Ultimate Camping List


  • Tent, poles, stakes
  • Tarp for under tent
  • Repair kit for pads, mattress, tent, tarp
  • Rubber mallet
  • Sleeping Bags
  • Pillows, blankets, fitted sheets for air mattresses
  • Air Mattress
  • Hand broom & dustpan
  • Outdoor mat
  • Chairs
  • Flashlights & LED lanterns
  • Extra batteries
  • Extension cords (if you have electrical hookup)


  • Matches or lighter
  • Firewood (please check with your local campground firewood requirements. Here you cannot bring in outside wood to the state parks)
  • Portable Propane Grill
  • Pots & Pans
  • Cast Iron pan
  • Coffee Press (cannot live without coffee)
  • Reusable dishes & silverware
  • Water bottles Cutting board
  • Paring knife, spatula, cooking spoon
  • Roasting sticks for marshmallows, hot dogs
  • 2 plastic bins for washing/rinsing dishes
  • Biodegradable soap
  • Sponge, dishcloth, dishtowel,
  • Dish drying rack
  • Food-storage containers, bags
  • Foil
  • Tablecloth
  • Trash bags
  • Cooler
  • Ice
  • Paper towels
  • Corkscrew


  • Clothes for daytime
  • Sleepwear
  • Swimsuits
  • Rainwear
  • Shoes: hiking/walking shoes, easy-on shoes, water shoes
  • Extra layers for warmth
  • Hats
  • Shower flipflops/shoes
  • Towels

Personal Items

  • Sunscreen
  • Insect repellant
  • First-aid kit
  • Prescription medications
  • Toothbrush, toiletries
  • Soap
  • Shower caddy to carry toiletries

Other Items

  • Camera
  • Campsite reservation confirmation, phone number
  • Maps, area information
  • Bikes, games

Running sucks.

Okay, that may be a little harsh. But I hate running, I always have. Running the mile in gym class in high school was miserable, despite being skinny and actually having the endurance of a 16-year-old. And it always seemed the running had to happen outside, in November when it’s just getting to be cold as hell in here in Michigan. After high school, I never once had the desire to run for the next several years, especially for fun.

Losing weight is a great motivator to start exercising, but for me, gym memberships never work. I sign up, go a couple of times, and continue to pay for a gym I never end up going back to. While losing weight is a great goal to have, it is easy to get caught up in the day-to-day life and make excuses for why you can’t make it to the gym. I needed a bigger goal then just simply “to lose weight” and something to hold me accountable and a way to force me to work out, even if  I didn’t want to. So I decided to sign up for a 5k.

I got the idea after going to cheer on a family member at the Detroit Free Press Marathon. Watching people cross the finish line was inspirational. These people had just ran 13 or 26 miles and didn’t die. I thought if all these thousands of people can run a half & full marathon, surely I can manage to run a measly 3.107 miles. Plus I wanted a cool medal. I figured that by signing up for a 5k would hold me accountable because I would be forced to train. Coming from a sedentary life style and not in my younger days, I can’t go from couch to 5k with no training.

To find the 5k that I was going to run, I went to the Running in the USA website to find my first 5k. I also would suggest looking to see if there is a state specific site for where you live, as there are smaller, more local races that may not be listed on the Running in the USA site. Here in Michigan, we have a site called Run Michigan that expands on the list I found on the Running in the USA site.

The most important tool to have if you are going to start running is a good pair of shoes. The way each person runs is different and there are a myriad of injuries and problems that people have that can make running difficult, which is exacerbated even more by bad shoes. I once heard a bit of advice of regarding items you should never cheap out on and that was items that separate you from the ground, i.e. shoes & mattresses. Spend the money on a good pair of running shoes if you are going to commit to running as a hobby, even more so if you plan on entering races.

I used Runner’s World shoe finder tool to help me determine a good shoe for my needs. I will stress that this is important. I tried jogging before with a cheap pair of running shoes from Payless and I have an ankle I have broken & sprained more times than I can count. I quit because my ankle would end up hurting so bad that it wasn’t worth it. I splurged on a pair of $80 shoes that were recommended for bad ankles and had no ankle issues or blisters. Also, in this same vein is moisture wicking padded running socks. Evil Husband joined me on my first 5k and wore regular tube socks and got horrible blisters because of the socks.

My fancy running shoes

Once you’ve got the good pair of socks & shoes, the training is next. I used the Couch to 5k app “Run Double.” I actually bought the full version of the app (using my Google Rewards) since I had planned on doing more than one 5k and would be using it frequently. I started my C25k training in around November and my first 5k was in February. I was crazy to sign up for a 5k in February in Michigan, but oddly enjoyed running in the cold weather. We actually ended up having a sunny,  not bitterly cold day.

I have to admit that my criteria for choosing the 5ks I wanted to run, I dubbed the “fatty 5ks.” They all had food and/or beer at the end of the races. The first 5k we ran was the Paczki Run, which the reward was a paczki (for those not familiar is a Polish delicacy, a ginormous doughnut filled with all sorts of yummy things like custard, raspberry, etc.) and a beer.

I ran the 5k in around 45 minutes, which I didn’t consider too bad for my first go. I also stupidly tried to keep up with Evil Husband the first 1/4 mile, instead of running at my own pace, so I tired out earlier then I should have. But, I finished, and I didn’t die from exhaustion and the paczki at the end was amazing. So was the beer at 10:00 in the morning.

Twoje zdrowie (cheers)!

We ended up signing up & running two more 5ks that year. The last race is what broke me and I lost my interest in 5ks completely. I don’t want to discourage anyone by telling this story, but it also plays into the factors you should consider when choosing a race, one of which is time of the race. This particular race was in June and it started at 6:00 in the evening. We didn’t consider the time of the race when we signed up, but figured it would cool down by then. Well, it didn’t.

The race began outside of a park and the beginning was nice and flat, and most importantly,  shaded. It was pushing 90 degrees that day and humid. So being in the shade was nice. Then, the trail went out of the park and followed the main road, and in full sun. We rounded a bend and things were okay until I noticed the huge hill I was about to run down. I wasn’t worried about going down, I noticed the first group of people heading back in our direction up the hill. Only the first two guys were actually running, kind of. Everyone else was walking up that damn hill.

Just before the halfway point, there were two tables of water for either side, coming down & going back up. I got half a Dixie cup at the bottom of the hill, and when I came back they had run out of water, which means all the people behind me, didn’t get any water at all…on a 90 degree day.  It was brutal going back up that hill. I didn’t even attempt to run and just tried walking it. About halfway up the hill, I noticed that I wasn’t feeling so great and I had stopped sweating entirely. My forehead that had previously been drenched in sweat was bone dry. I started feeling dizzy and nauseous. I realized that I was dehydrated and probably about to have a heat stroke. I went off the trail and sat in the shade under a tree. I texted Evil Husband and my cousin who had already finished by this point that I didn’t think I was going to make it.

While I was sitting in the shade, trying not to pass out, 3 older ladies came and sat down with me. They wanted to make sure I was all right, but they weren’t feeling so great either as they weren’t able to get any water at all. So I sat and chatted with them and started feeling a lot better. I was determined to finish and remembered the last part was all in the shade, so it wouldn’t be too bad. I made my way back to the finish line, and Evil Husband & my cousin had begun their way back to find me with water, and helped me cross the finish line.

I can’t say I will never do another 5k again. I honestly really enjoy doing them, as much as I hate running. The sense of accomplishment you get finishing a race is amazing, as is the excitement & adrenaline rush of race day. It is one hobby I would really like to get back into.

Greetings from….

A little over 10 years ago, I stumbled upon a site that connected people from all over the world. Not MySpace, not Facebook, but a modern day pen pal type site with an old school twist….mailing postcards. Postcrossing is a site where you can send and receive postcards all over the world. A month or so ago, I was chatting with Princess Unicorn about how neat it was to get postcards from all over the world and thought I would check out the site again to see if it was still up and running. And it is still going strong. They boast over 700,000 members from 214 countries across the globe. Pretty impressive from what I remember the site being back in 2005.

We signed up and I went on a hunt to find local postcards around where we live to mail out. In 2005, that was a fairly easy task. In 2017, not so much, unless you live in a touristy area. I found a small store that sold a few postcards for about $2 each. I only bought a couple there, but I just so happened to have a friend traveling to a vacation spot in our state and she picked up a handful for us. If you really have trouble finding some, good old Amazon has some great sets of postcards, like the “Greetings From (insert state/country)” vintage style postcards.

My favorite postcard received so far from South Korea

So how this whole Postcrossing thing works, is you have to send postcards in order to receive any. Each address you request, which is random, is given a unique ID that needs to be written somewhere on the postcard for the receiver to register when they get it in their mailbox. Once your postcards are registered, your address will get added in to the pool to receive. I really like this system as it prevents people from scamming and only receiving postcards without having to send any out. You are only allowed to have a certain number of “traveling” postcards, which can be a bit frustrating when you’re maxed out and it has been weeks waiting for someone to register your postcard.

We sent out the first batch of 5 postcards to Russia, Hong Kong, Germany, Australia & Colorado, U.S.A. You can adjust your settings to send & receive postcards from your own country as well. We opted in as, being in the United States, we have the chance to collect postcards from all 50 states. Although, it was quite funny that the very first postcard we received was not only from the U.S., but from the state literally right below ours that we travel through every summer.  Out of the first 5 postcards we sent out, only 4 made it to their destination. If a postcard never gets registered, it expires after 60 days, and then it will no longer count against your “traveling” postcards. After one year, it will be removed completely.

Your profile consists of an “About Me” page that you can tell users a little about yourself and what type of postcards you would like to receive, like cat postcards or something. Some profiles I’ve come across are very specific as to what type of postcards they want (or don’t want) to receive. The profile page also lists all the postcards you’ve sent & received, a photo wall if you upload images of your postcard, and a nifty map that shows where all your postcards have come from and gone to. There is also stats page that breakdowns the countries you sent postcards to & from.

Postcrossing map
Postcrossing map. Red is sent & Blue is received.

Postcrossing chart
Our breakdown of countries

The Postcrossing site gives some really great writing prompts on their blog and I’ve found some great tips & tricks on the site as well. For example, using Google’s Photoscan app to scan the postcard images for uploading instead of just taking a picture. The app actually takes 4 pictures & combines them, and also crops & removes glare.

We received 2 postcards from 2 different users in Belarus on the same day!


We have received some really awesome postcards from all over the world. And a few senders have taken the time to write some very interesting stories about themselves. We got one postcard from Germany that the sender told us about traveling to East Germany after the Berlin Wall was torn down. It is a fun, somewhat inexpensive hobby that we’ve decided to continue at least until the postcard album I bought is full.

Happy Postcrossing!




The Game I Hate: Race for the Galaxy

I love playing board games. However, there are games we have bought and played that never really kept our interest beyond a few games. Smash Up is one I can think of that both Evil Husband and I both didn’t really enjoy. There are games that Evil Husband loves that I just have had the hardest time getting into. Race for the Galaxy is one of these games. I really didn’t want to play this game at all. But, I did say I’d play the game I hate, so I had to live up to my promise. So, I gave Race for the Galaxy another try.

I disliked Race for the Galaxy for various reasons, but the biggest one is I just didn’t get the point of it. It’s a deck building game where players are racing to build galactic civilizations, but there is something lacking that I have never really been able to put my finger on. I have to admit though, a few of the times we tried playing in the past, cocktails were involved and this is definitely not drinking and gaming type of game.  When you are presented with a double sided card on how to play and a “starter” hand, alcohol shouldn’t be involved until you really know how to play.

Front Side

Flip Side

Each player is given a set of cards that represent each of the phases of round and at the beginning of each round, players secretly and simultaneously select which phase they wish to play.  Players can choose to explore (draw more cards), develop (place a card on their tableau), settle (place a world card on their tableau), consume (consume powers by discarding “goods”), or produce (place a “good” on a world.) Selecting one of these phases at the beginning of every round, each player is given the chance to perform that phase’s action. Only player who has chosen the phase gets a bonus that applies only to them as shown on the Round Summary card.


In addition to the phase cards, players are given a set of random cards consisting of settlements or developments to play on their tableau. Below are examples of various settlement cards and development cards.  The numbers indicated in the diamond or circle indicate the number of cards to be discarded in order for that card to be played in the player’s tableau.

Midway through game play (face down cards are “goods” to be consumed.)

The game ends when either one player has 12 cards on their tableau in front of them or all of the victory point chips are gone. Victory point chips can be awarded through out game play during the “Consume” phase where players can trade in the “goods” (cards placed face down on a world) for either more cards or points.  At the end of the game, the chips are totaled up, as well as the cards laid on the tableau and each card has an assigned victory point as indicated by the smaller secondary number on each card.

End of game. I lost.

Final verdict: Despite my protests, I played this game again with an open mind and a full cup of coffee. It really wasn’t as bad as I thought and I kind of want to try playing without the starter hand. Because I’m pretty sure that’s all we’ve ever played. If you enjoy deck building games, you will enjoy Race for the Galaxy.

My next hobby is letterboxing. It is similar to geocaching, however involves stamps and journals. If you are unfamiliar with both of these hobbies, they both are real world “treasure” hunting using GPS or compass coordinates to find a box left behind by someone.